Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

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Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 18th, 2009, 6:50 pm

First off I'm not sure if this is the right section for this, I do apologize if it is not. I'm sure it can be more it is. Anyway...

Okay I have a question for all Plymouth owners and enthusiast too. As my introduction said, I am a full time college student and would love to own a 57 or 58 Plymouth. Now I MIGHT have an opportunity to buy one from a salvage here in Kansas (it's near in South-East Kansas, but near the North-Eastern Oklahoma border), but it is about 2 - 3 hours away from where I live. Also I am not quite sure of the condition of the Plymouth. The woman told me it's a four door and pretty much mostly there and not sure it is a 57 or 58 (or what model - I have to ask the owner of the salvage) and that they had it for awhile, but probably can be restored. She said there are a few other 57 or 58's on their lot. (she also said they had CRUSHED most of the ones they did have, but kept parts to sell - I wanted to cry) Anyway, I also don't have a lot of money at the moment to dig deep into restoring it, probably will take, as excepted (and lots of money), years to complete, but I probably have enough to buy it from the salvage; I will have to call back at the beginning of next week for a price for the car, as the owner of the salvage is currently out of town. I just wanted some advice from all ya here on the forum before doing anything drastic and all. Let me know whatcha think?

I also must mention that I know some mechanical and other car repair aspects, but I am SO willing to learn more, obviously and my Dad and Uncle both know quite a bit about working on cars too.

Thanks!
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby BigM on February 18th, 2009, 8:24 pm

James,
you will need to look at the car before deciding if you want to buy it at a good price. North eastern Kansas has harsh winters, and road salt may be used there, meaning severe rust, especially if the car has been setting on the soil for years. Cars can actually break into two when they are being removed from long term storage in fields, forest, etc.

Then again, the yard may have towed the car more recently from an abandoned building where it was kept out of the elements until just recently, and suffered only minor rust.

Mechanical work on these cars is relatively simple, but repairing weak frames, rusted undercarriages, etc. is not nearly as easy, unless you are an experienced welder/fabricator.

If you have doubts in your mind after viewing the car, it may be better to walk away. Rust is one of those things that is often worse than what it initially seems.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from the car before going to look at it, but look at it with your head, and not your heart. ---John
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 18th, 2009, 8:41 pm

BigM wrote:James,
you will need to look at the car before deciding if you want to buy it at a good price. North eastern Kansas has harsh winters, and road salt may be used there, meaning severe rust, especially if the car has been setting on the soil for years. Cars can actually break into two when they are being removed from long term storage in fields, forest, etc.

Then again, the yard may have towed the car more recently from an abandoned building where it was kept out of the elements until just recently, and suffered only minor rust.

Mechanical work on these cars is relatively simple, but repairing weak frames, rusted undercarriages, etc. is not nearly as easy, unless you are an experienced welder/fabricator.

If you have doubts in your mind after viewing the car, it may be better to walk away. Rust is one of those things that is often worse than what it initially seems.

I'm not trying to dissuade you from the car before going to look at it, but look at it with your head, and not your heart. ---John


Certainly I know what you are saying - make a decision logically and not strictly from my heart. This is way I posted this here and especially for the ones who restored these Plymouths know what it all involves, so thanks for your advice. I made an edit to my original post on location - as it was misleading. The location is in South-Eastern Kansas, but near the North-Eastern Oklahoma border. I am not sure how the car came to be there, but the woman told me they had it for awhile, as to how many years, not sure. I know anything rusty is a big pain too, my Uncle is an experienced welder - exactly how good not sure, but he does repair/restore cars, at least used to for years (before his neighbor complained to the city) and then resell them.

I know I would have to look at the car first. I wouldn't want to do something that drastic and buy it without looking at it. The thing is, I am not sure how soon I'd be able to get out to the small-town salvage yard. I'm not even sure my current car can even make a 2-3 hour drive, unfortunately.
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby 58plym on February 18th, 2009, 8:47 pm

Hey James John is right. I know you are young and have your heart set on getting you a 57 or 58. This may be a good car, who know!s till you get a look at it. Rust is the main problem with these cars. Not the bolt on parts like fenders ect. but main parts like quarter panels that would have to be cut and welded. You have lots of time to get a good car at your price. I know when I was younger I sure made some deals that I regretted later. Don!t commit on it before you see it. Bob 8-) 8-) :lol: :lol: :D :D Man I love you young guys getting into the older cars like me. We have some younger guys like 18-20 years old in My HeapHerders car club has been going for almost 59 years and with young people like you it may go for another 59. Man that is great
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 18th, 2009, 8:54 pm

58plym wrote:Hey James John is right. I know you are young and have your heart set on getting you a 57 or 58. This may be a good car, who know!s till you get a look at it. Rust is the main problem with these cars. Not the bolt on parts like fenders ect. but main parts like quarter panels that would have to be cut and welded. You have lots of time to get a good car at your price. I know when I was younger I sure made some deals that I regretted later. Don!t commit on it before you see it. Bob 8-) 8-) :lol: :lol: :D :D Man I love you young guys getting into the older cars like me. We have some younger guys like 18-20 years old in My HeapHerders car club has been going for almost 59 years and with young people like you it may go for another 59. Man that is great


Yeah I understand what you're both saying, as I mentioned above to John. Both, thanks. I know I have time, though I know how rare the cars are and didn't want to pass it up if it is indeed restorable. I also wanted to see what you all here have to say here - opinions like are cherished, you've all (the owners/restorist) have gone through much with their cars. I know I have to look at it, just not sure when I'd be able to and not sure if my car can make a 2-3 hour trip to the small town.

Heh, yeah I am almost in that range, just barely out of it at 23. I love older cars. They have all that chrome and curves, it's something about 'em that's attracting and definitely have great character. I like some newer cars too, but mainly older.
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby RedPhenix on February 18th, 2009, 10:37 pm

Well, hears my 2 cents.... I bought my 1st. 57 plym. when I was 16 (I was lucky), 5 yrs. after seeing the movie. But before I bought her I watched it in a guy's back yard and watched out for one until one day that one was finally let go, it was the best $650 I ever spent. Any way this went on (the watching part) for quit a few years before I bought it and mind you I had my eye out looking for the (almighty 57 or 58 plym, my Christine) that I wanted so bad I could taste it.
I admit when I got her I was "Full of p!@# and vinager", and when I got her breathing a sigh of relief that (in my mind) was getting possibly the last "cheap one" out there. And I made alot of mistakes, hah hah. It started with the patching the TOTALLY ROTTEN flooors, patching the frame, patch hear patch there. Replace what I could, and then there wesn't a whole lot of repro places and people like today. So it was very hard. But in my mind and heart I fought the good fight that others told me not to do. I was in love with the beautiful curves of the body, the shinny chrome and the total seduction of a car that I was told was beyond restoration. But I was happy and as long as I could drive her down the road, even though I could only make 35 mph due to extreme vibrations and shimies. Through all this and many years after she was sold and nothing but a memory I've learned MANY things, what to do and NOT to do. It was a very good experiance. And I use that experiance today. I only wish I had listen to the guy's who had been there before and had the experiance, that I use today. Maybe I'd still have her today. But today I have another 57 plym., when I thought I would never find another and I did. And at 33 the seduction started all over again, like a drug I think (like me) we are ALL HOOKED. But be careful, you don't want a monster that with "Trumps millions" might make it to what "you see" in your mind. It's very tricky to determine, but all I can say is look at her beatiful lines and seductive curves and "over all" total condition and decide not only with your heart because if your heart isn't in it forget it, but most importantly your head. You have to look her over real good inside, outside, under the fenders, frame, floors, etc. (in person) and decide, Is this too much for me or not. I kind of look at it like or very similar to a marriage, If you make the right decision nothing abosolutlely nothing will be finer and nothing will get you down. But if you make the wrong decision trust me, it will be a (what seems to be) never ending nightmare. Just remember this "Good things come to those who wait". :) But most importantly, Listen to these guy's because trust me, "We've all been there, done that"
- I said to a freind years ago about my car "sometimes it seems to be a Love/Hate relationship" :) Good luck, my freind 8-) 8-) 8-)
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby RedPhenix on February 19th, 2009, 1:57 pm

And if that don't work out, there's a 57 on ebay for 1,500 or less in corbon, KY. Check it out. They don't normaly last long on there for that. ;)
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 19th, 2009, 8:16 pm

RedPhenix wrote:And if that don't work out, there's a 57 on ebay for 1,500 or less in corbon, KY. Check it out. They don't normaly last long on there for that. ;)
"{Whenever one door closes, Always remember another one Will open}"
-Red 8-) 8-)


Thanks for your advice from above and the tip for ebay. You are right, I understand that if my heart is not in it, it's not worth it - but still think with my head. Thanks for the little story too, yeah I don't want to make a decision I will regret. I THINK I will still call on this Plymouth here Kansas at the beginning of next week when the salvage owner gets back and asking about its condition, etc. - maybe even ask if pictures can be supplied, probably not, but won't hurt to at least ask. If it sounds and/or not worth it I won't go and look at it. I think I may even just let this one pass (I do have time) and wait for a slightly better condition one, even though I know sometimes they don't last that long. I may even post an ad in the "Vehicle Wanted" section in our local newspaper. Sometime anyway. Perhaps there's one here in town *shrugs* or someone knows someone who has one to sell.

Once again thanks for all the advice from all of you. This is way I asked. I knew you all have seen this, seen that, been there and all. Opinions are cherished! As you said "good things happen to those who wait." I have time, I'm young. Haha I just hope my patience can hang in there. :P
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby Bloodhound1958 on February 19th, 2009, 8:51 pm

James, definitely wouldn't be a bad idea to take a ride with your camera and take pics of all the 57-58's and goodies. We love looking at pics!
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 20th, 2009, 6:38 pm

Update, well sort of... I was looking through my Plymouth book, covering ones from the 40's to 1960... and I came across a piece of paper (from like 5-6 years ago) that I wrote the blue book value of a 1958 Plymouth Belvedere with a clipping of an old classifieds ad that someone here in state had a 1958 Plymouth Belvedere for sale for $1,500 OBO. Well I called it a little while ago, just MAYBE it didn't sell, well they did sell it, but the woman told me that a family there in town has two Plymouths, possible 57 or 58 (she was not sure, but did in fact say "they look like Christine, wide and with those big fins"). This family have been wanting to get rid of them, the woman was still told this a couple of days ago. Oh and they are blue apparently too. I thanked her with a smile on my face.

So I gave this family a call, number provided by the previous woman, and got an answering machine - I left a message that I was interested in the Plymouths and would like to ask some questions about them, gave my number and hung up. Good news is that these Plymouths are closer to me than the other. Instead of 3 hours away possibly 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours away, not much, but some. And these Plymouths may be in better condition too, as apparently the color of the paint is still visible rather than rust. High hopes, but not too high.

I shall give another update when I hear back from the family with the Plymouths - maybe they have pictures to show or I may go up there if they sound good. We'll see. 'Till then!
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby BigM on February 20th, 2009, 6:46 pm

Gotta chase those leads, that's for sure. You may just get the deal of the century! ---John
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby RedPhenix on February 20th, 2009, 10:05 pm

JamesC wrote:Update, well sort of... I was looking through my Plymouth book, covering ones from the 40's to 1960... and I came across a piece of paper (from like 5-6 years ago) that I wrote the blue book value of a 1958 Plymouth Belvedere with a clipping of an old classifieds ad that someone here in state had a 1958 Plymouth Belvedere for sale for $1,500 OBO. Well I called it a little while ago, just MAYBE it didn't sell, well they did sell it, but the woman told me that a family there in town has two Plymouths, possible 57 or 58 (she was not sure, but did in fact say "they look like Christine, wide and with those big fins"). This family have been wanting to get rid of them, the woman was still told this a couple of days ago. Oh and they are blue apparently too. I thanked her with a smile on my face.

So I gave this family a call, number provided by the previous woman, and got an answering machine - I left a message that I was interested in the Plymouths and would like to ask some questions about them, gave my number and hung up. Good news is that these Plymouths are closer to me than the other. Instead of 3 hours away possibly 1 1/2 to 2 1/2 hours away, not much, but some. And these Plymouths may be in better condition too, as apparently the color of the paint is still visible rather than rust. High hopes, but not too high.

I shall give another update when I hear back from the family with the Plymouths - maybe they have pictures to show or I may go up there if they sound good. We'll see. 'Till then!

- Good luck my friend, I wish you all the best, like I'm sure we all here do! If you get one of them or any 57 or 58, don't forget to send some pic.'s of it to your freinds here :)
Red 8-) 8-)
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby 58plym on February 21st, 2009, 10:44 am

8-) :lol: :D Good luck James. I hope you get a nice surprise and one turns out for you. Bob :D
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 21st, 2009, 9:03 pm

Thanks RedPhenix and 58Plym... for the support.

Update again: ... I got a hold of the contact, it's his father who owns the two Plymouths, he's just talking for his father. I am waiting for him to send pictures of the two Plymouths that they have. The Plymouths are two rusty blue 57's... ones a Plaza 4-door sedan (that needs some work - as they had cut out the trunk space and made a "bed" like an El Camino... so it would need a whole back section), and the other is a Savoy 2-door. Unfortunately I assume that the father wants a lot for them - despite the conditions. The man told me that they had them up on Ebay awhile ago, but his father wasn't satisfied with any of the bids he got - I suppose that doesn't necessarily mean expensive, but possibly. *shrugs* I will ask how much for the Plymouths. However I would prefer, as most, a Belvedere or Fury - perhaps settle for a Savoy. Ideally I would want a 58 Plymouth Belvedere or Fury, haha.

Unfortunately they also had a red 58 Plymouth some years ago and sold it for cheap, he thought his father should of asked for more as its condition was better than the current two. Nuts! Heh.

When I get the pictures I will post them here in this thread. 'Till then!
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby Jason on February 21st, 2009, 11:23 pm

Cant wait to see em!! One thing Ive learnt with Plymouths is that the more cars you see the more you will understand how they work and have worked/deteriorated over the years. Here in Australia parts are virtually immpossable to obtain and have to be made (some mechanical parts are interchangable with the Aussie Chrysler equivalent whiuch is good) So, Ive always made sure that cars Ive bought were at least complete with all trims and parts that could be rrestored. Ive said no to many cars but you know... the right car will turn up when you least expect it too so just keep looking.
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby 58plym on February 22nd, 2009, 2:47 pm

:idea: that!s right bro
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 23rd, 2009, 12:23 pm

Well I got the pictures for the two Plymouths I was interested in hearing about...

Here is the worse of the two, the 1957 Plymouth Plaza Sedan...

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And here's the 1957 Plymouth Savoy 2-door...

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Now I know they are not horribly rusty, the bodies are not totally wrecked (despite the Plaza's trunk), but the Savoy looks to have holes in the floor boards and all. I too would prefer a Belvedere, Fury or Savoy. I THINK I will let these two pass (I am also not in the greatest financial position to dig deep into restoration).

I had a question though: I did notice that both cars seem to have a gear shifter on the right, are they not push button? However the Savoy does have a hole on the left, like where the transmission buttons were housed, but has a shifter on the right? I ALSO noticed a third pedal on both cars, is that a clutch, i.e. meaning they are manuals?

I didn't ask how much they want for them, but what do you guys think? I mean is it a crime; a fantasy; a dream to think it is possible to find a 57 or 58 Plymouth Belvedere, Fury or Savoy that is in fair condition (body and mechanically), running, or kind of running, or almost close to running at a lower cost?

I do suppose I will have to wait, which isn't a bigger - as mentioned I do have time and am young. So yeah. I will try and call that other one I originally heard about and see what condition it's in and price, it's further away though. *shrugs* I shall just keep my eyes open for that "deal of a lifetime" it may pop up sometime that or save up or win the lottery and have one built! Ha!
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby 58plym on February 23rd, 2009, 6:29 pm

James they are both 3 speed manual transmissions. They are a lot of work to tackle on either one. of them. Bob
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 23rd, 2009, 6:50 pm

58plym wrote:James they are both 3 speed manual transmissions. They are a lot of work to tackle on either one. of them. Bob


That is what I figured, on both things. Thus I ask again, is it a crime; a fantasy; a dream to think it is possible to find a 57 or 58 Plymouth Belvedere, Fury or Savoy that is in fair condition (body and mechanically), running, or kind of running, or almost close to running at a lower cost?

I must have enduring patience, like several of you guys here with your Plymouths, you all eventually got and/or worked for them.
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby christineuk on February 23rd, 2009, 8:35 pm

James, I think I remember both of those car on ebay not so long ago. The V8 one dosen't look that bad in the pics, just some of the usual rust. If you are looking to 'get into' ANY 57/58 plymouth for not alot of money there will be jobs to do, some easier than others. Also alot of it depends how fussy you are about appearence, the silver special I have just got is a real bare bones car, BUT that to me is a big part of it's appeal, it looks a little rough but is solid, that is what you ideally need to find if your budget is low. I paid 1220 dollars for her. Forget about a belvy and especially a fury in usuable condition for low bucks, those days are long gone sadly. :cry: A rolling restoration may be the way to go?? Drive it and fix it when you feel like it and when money allows. Don't also rule out the six cylinder cars, they have a charm all their own, not fast but very reliable.
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby RedPhenix on February 23rd, 2009, 9:25 pm

-I have to agree on that. The v-8 don't look to "OUT THERE" restoration wise. And the Fury's and Belvy's are sometimes a little unearthly in price now days :roll: And you can sometimes change around the moldinings {if you want} and make her look realy,realy "tough" and sharp. As well as powertrains and so on. As long as the price is right :idea: But buying one of these isn't a bad idea or something like it, because you want your hands to get dirty, you WANT to dig around the car your building and get to know her :!: Get to know every little thing about it, trust me ;) I think theirs plenty of us here who can say at sometime or another hasn't spent alittle time either under the chasis or under the dash or the hood. It's a great learning experiance and makes you that much more prouder of her when people compliment your car and you.
- But your the one who needs to look at the car and see her in your "minds eye" and see what she "can" be and if your patient and dilagent enough, "will" be :D
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--- Just a note: I once saw a guy pull one of these cars from a woods one time, of course he had to cut the tree off that was growing where the engine once was. :lol: And hauled her away to restore her. I guess it's true, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 23rd, 2009, 9:40 pm

christineuk wrote:James, I think I remember both of those car on ebay not so long ago. The V8 one dosen't look that bad in the pics, just some of the usual rust. If you are looking to 'get into' ANY 57/58 plymouth for not alot of money there will be jobs to do, some easier than others. Also alot of it depends how fussy you are about appearence, the silver special I have just got is a real bare bones car, BUT that to me is a big part of it's appeal, it looks a little rough but is solid, that is what you ideally need to find if your budget is low. I paid 1220 dollars for her. Forget about a belvy and especially a fury in usuable condition for low bucks, those days are long gone sadly. :cry: A rolling restoration may be the way to go?? Drive it and fix it when you feel like it and when money allows. Don't also rule out the six cylinder cars, they have a charm all their own, not fast but very reliable.


Yeah you probably did see these on Ebay, the man told me his father did put them on Ebay awhile ago, but he was not satisfied with the bids he got on them, so yeah. I know, for a little cost, there will be some repairs and jobs to be done, that's not a too biggie, but I DO suppose I am looking for a, as you put it cleverly, "rolling restoration". However the 57 Savoy here looks a little more rough though, things missing in the interior, seats gone, and it's a manual (not sure how they work compared to a "usual" manual. I was also looking for an automatic. Also the floor board looks to have holes too. *shrugs*

I like yours, yours is better looking than the 1957 Savoy here, I think it's the trim that gets me and the grille. I prefer the looks of the 58's VS the 57's. (I know you can turn a 57 to a 58, I suppose that's an option) The Plaza has none and yours does. Question: Is yours here a "rolling restoration"? See: you bought yours for little, that's what I'm looking for - with little or no shipping. This is why I am limited to location of the car, barely over the border or actually in Kansas.

I guess another question is... this 57 Savoy is it too far gone to become an "easier" "rolling restoration"?

RedPhenix wrote: -I have to agree on that. The v-8 don't look to "OUT THERE" restoration wise. And the Fury's and Belvy's are sometimes a little unearthly in price now days :roll: And you can sometimes change around the moldinings {if you want} and make her look realy,realy "tough" and sharp. As well as powertrains and so on. As long as the price is right :idea: But buying one of these isn't a bad idea or something like it, because you want your hands to get dirty, you WANT to dig around the car your building and get to know her :!: Get to know every little thing about it, trust me ;) I think theirs plenty of us here who can say at sometime or another hasn't spent alittle time either under the chasis or under the dash or the hood. It's a great learning experiance and makes you that much more prouder of her when people compliment your car and you.
- But your the one who needs to look at the car and see her in your "minds eye" and see what she "can" be and if your patient and dilagent enough, "will" be :D
-Red 8-)
--- Just a note: I once saw a guy pull one of these cars from a woods one time, of course he had to cut the tree off that was growing where the engine once was. :lol: And hauled her away to restore her. I guess it's true, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder :)


Right I know the Savoy is not too far gone, but I think Christineuk hit something there, I guess I am looking for a "rolling restoration" and I understand what you mean about pride and going through fixing it up and all. I do prefer the look of the Belvedere and Fury over the Plaza. HOW DIFFICULT is it to make this Savoy look like a Belvedere? Turn into a 58?... a harder one, it's an usual manual, not sure how these manuals work, so I was looking for an automatic. Is the Savoy too far gone to turn into all that, it does have missing interior items and holes in the floor board. *shrugs*

ONE FINALLY QUESTIONS FOR EVERYONE: in the Savoy, look at the interior shot, I know it's a manual, but what IS that open space to the left of the steering wheel if it is a manual and not having the transmission buttons there? And how does these manuals (as the shifter is on the steering column) work compared to a manual with the shifter on the floor?
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby Dukeboy on February 23rd, 2009, 10:02 pm

James, Sometimes the trim to convert a lower model, as well as the labor to ill/drill the holes can be big money....You will most likely have to get the Sport Tone piece by piece....
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby JamesC on February 23rd, 2009, 10:35 pm

Dukeboy wrote:James, Sometimes the trim to convert a lower model, as well as the labor to ill/drill the holes can be big money....You will most likely have to get the Sport Tone piece by piece....


Ah, yes I do suppose it would be. Thanks for the advice if I ever have to do this when and if I get my own beauty. :D
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Re: Opportunity to buy car - good or bad, advice?

Postby RedPhenix on February 23rd, 2009, 11:57 pm

-It looks to me like someone cut the dash to put {what ever that is} in the dash. They probably got the idea :idea: seeing a push-button control in another automatic plym. And believe it or not I've seen savoys and so on converted to Belvy's and even fury's. You just have to do your home work on where the holes are to be drilled {a little measuring and book reading} and as for the molding, I've seen some guy's actually make the molding by frankensteining it. The molding did not change all that much except on Fury's they had the Hocky sticks in the back. And you can scavange a lot of parts from diffrent places and cars all over the place. One of them being ebay. I cruised through there looking for one thing and a guy was parting out an old plymouth and I managed to get a pair of {like new} Belevedere name plates for mine for $5.00 + shipping.While other s wanted $$$$ for the same thing polished :roll: The parts are out there, it all depends where you look. And sometimes you end up with original stuff cheap and not anything reman. or repopped for more pricer $$$ prices.
-Good luck in your search,
Red 8-) 8-)
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